All jokes aside. SAM KEAN: Basically, the midwife toad has a strange habit for toads. In this episode, originally aired in 2012, we put nature and nurture on a collision course and discover how outside forces can find a way inside us, and change not just our hearts and minds, but the basic biological blueprint that we pass on to future generations._Support Radiolab by becoming a member of The Lab today. Honestly, I think it never seemed like she was anything but my real mom, if that makes sense. JAD: You can imagine these toads are like, "Dammit, fine. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. You have to do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days. It's such a surprising result. And well just let the old yahoos from whom we inheritedededed inherited it take it away. SAM KEAN: Except he had one. And what about the four kids that weren't raised with Barbara? You know, just take a little peek for themselves, and every time Kammerer said no, they were his specimens. And um Doctors would later explain to Barbara that Destiny's mom had been addicted to drugs while she was pregnant. But what exactly Maybe you can explain this to me, Robert. All these women who have so many babies and never try to seek drug treatment. This assignment is from the free science education website Science Prof Online(ScienceProfOnline.com). And The other day someone was whistling and I was like, "Stop it", and it just hit me, I was like, "Oh God, I was him", it's never appeared until now. PAT: Like shed give the women a choice. He was born in 1880 in Vienna, Jewish family. We actually sent our friend, Pejk Malinovski, to the archives in Stockholm to check it out. I mean, he hates water. Edward Condon Session III American Institute of Physics. CARL ZIMMER: And he says, "This isn't a nuptial pad, it looks darkened but that's just ink.". I agree with Lynn, that this program does perpetuate a stereotype. ", In other words, "Could I pay women who have drug problems to stop having babies?". SAM KEAN: But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. We went to the foster home and went in. These people are paying millions of dollars to take care of your children!]. Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision? We neuter them.". I had everybody's abuse on my back and I didn't care how we said it, or how we did it. ROBERT: Thats what Darwin says, you cant. To fellow named Jean-Baptiste Pierre Antoine de Monet, chevalier de Lamarck. According to Frances, it's not just sitting up there perfectly preserved, it's in the middle of the cell, it's crowded. Who gave Destiny her first checkup told Barbara That she was delayed and she was always going to be delayed because of her prenatal neglect. Remind me this. I think what's weird here is that is that we started trying to make a difference in our children and now we're surprise attacked by our grandparents. Which, when you think about it, it has a very Lamarckian flavor. JAD: When rats have more of this protein, they will act more motherly. And I just felt like it was in one of those moments that contains everything that's good about us as people. LATIF: Still, still standing. PAT: Destiny says before she was born, her mom had four other girls. JAD: Yes. Nice, cool water. So he actually went to Vienna. JAD: What happens, it'll get stuck to one little part of the DNA and now that little bit of DNA FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: Is very difficult to get at. That kind of 30 years? This is spooky because it's like JAD: It means what if grandpa has a bad day? What happens when moms lick their pups is that the pup beccomes aroused. JAD: What you see in the records, is that one year PEJK MALINOVSKI: 100 liters. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. ROBERT: Are you near the Arctic Circle or OLOV BYGREN: My home village was 10 miles North of polar circle. They have found very similar effects for smoking, for instance. I guess the way I would look at it is that you can change your environment a lot more easily than you can change your genes. Were just talking about toad, I thought. BARBARA HARRIS: I decided to have a press conference in my front yard to announce what I was doing. ROBERT: Interestingly, the church has also kept track of the farmers' SAM KEAN: How much they were growing each year. [chuckles], OLOV BYGREN: Yes, yes. Where we began, they will accomplish. Over the past five years, if you look at our tax return. [ARCHIVAL CLIP, toddler: Theres the moon.]. We need to oblige the constraints of WNYC copyright arrangements and apologise for any inconveniences caused. They've seen it and they've repeated the experience. You're finishing college, right? All rights reserved. Females seem to hate laying eggs in the water, but is that the end of the story? You got your good parents and your bad parents. Now the Sweden story from our last segment left us both feeling a little strange. ROBERT: Kammerer, for one, was sent off to work as a sensor for the Austrian military. That doesn't matter. His example with humans was a blacksmith. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? BARBARA HARRIS: "I want to thank you for your support and kindness as always." JAD: These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara? SAM KEAN: And his lab ended up getting destroyed. Well, this is it! You can't change your DNA. You mean, if you had a starving grandfather, you would be a healthier boy for the because you had a starving grandfather? JAD: Lamarck said, You wanna know how a giraffe got its long neck?, JAD: One day this giraffe, mother giraffe, lets say, was looking up in the tree and saw some fruit, and had to stretch he neck, and stretch again. LULU: Oh actually, real thing, before we go, Latif. So he's got to live his life as a toad with all this baggage on him? Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. And I've got say, I'm feeling pretty good about this show so far. You know, they say it only takes one time. Just sing. I make a difference to her. When Kammerer published his results initially, a bunch of scientists immediately began to say CARL ZIMMER: "Wait a minute, hold on here, it would be nice if life was like that but life isn't like that. JAD: Many years later, he and this woman. And Destiny was in the other room, sleeping or something, I'm not sure. MICHAEL MEANEY: What happens when moms lick their pups is that the pup beccomes aroused. PEJK MALINOVSKI: It says "registrera", register. Okay, you want to say bye? CARL ZIMMER: So they can grab onto the female and hold tight while they're mating. JAD: No, not brain cells. JAD: Started with the tongue. I know I've been joking a lot in this interview, but I mean it with all that I am. More of this particular protein. PAT: Barbara has this drawer in her desk. LULU: Yeah, thats it. Maybe more. He was a born nurturer and he adored animals. We had an expression here, "Dig where you stand." So that's fun. But according to Kammerer, here's what happened when he heated up the toads little cage. Thank you so much for your interest in Radiolab. It is hosted by Lulu Miller and Latif Nasser. PAT: Barbara tried to get a law passed requiring just that. I wont say too much more except it includes one of my favorite kind of scientific parables that like Ive ever heard. [chuckles]. Oh, that's a lot of potatoes. JAD: Thanks to Olov Bygren, reporter Pejk Malinovski and KARIN BORGKVIST LJUNG: Karin Borgkvist Ljung, and I'm a senior archivist at the National Archive in Marieberg in Stockholm. And that number, by the way, has grown a lot. So Barbara and her son got in the car and drove across town to the foster home where Destiny had been living for the past eight months. JAD: Or very many of them right at all, but, you know, his basic idea seems to be true. All the babies I had seen and all the people that have called me to tell me about their babies that were damaged. If your grandpa didn't starve, instead he lived through great times. PAT: She just knew, "This is my daughter.". So by now it's 1994, and Barbara is thinking You know? a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. Then she goes, "Oh wait, I didn't give birth to you. But this was a really, really tough place to grow up. They began to grow these all puffy things on their hands. I mean, the idea that they could be constrained by their DNA, that maybe one of us gave them a bit of DNA thats gonna hold them back? Why would that happen? And youre saying that part of the DNA is covered up? These were kids that didn't end up with Barbara? Thyroid hormones then get into the brain and they turn on certain neural chemical signals. One time, and I'm on flighter. [foreign language]. How was this woman allowed", BARBARA HARRIS: "To walk into the hospital and drop off a damaged baby and just walk away with no consequences?". Thyroid hormones then get into the brain and they turn on certain neural chemical signals. They like to hang out in the water and the females like to lay eggs in the water. JAD: It's writer, Sam Kean again, and here's, he says, what you need to know about the midwife toad. And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. And at first, it didn't go so well because, you know, if you're a land toad and you're trying to have sex in the water, it's kind of hard. And he says, "This isn't a nuptial pad, it looks darkened but that's just ink.". And Destiny was in the other room, sleeping or something, I'm not sure. If you're a starving boy between 9 to 12 years old, now it doesn't matter a whole lot what happens to you after this, your grandchildren will have one-quarter the risk of heart disease. Listen Feb 3, 2023 Ukraine: The Handoff Pregnancy, and choice, in a war. Twitter: @wnycradiolab Language: English Contact: WNYC Radio 160 Varick St. New York, NY 10013 (646) 829-4000 Website: http://www.wnyc.org/shows/radiolab/ Email: radiolab@wnyc.org Episodes Golden Goose 2/17/2023 More As he's doing his rounds, he stops by the midwife toad terrarium, he looks down at that little male toad with grapes stuck to his legs and he wonders, "How adaptable is that little guy?" Move on to the next cage, yes, no? So thats the reason, of course, that we work with rats because we can get inside the brain. Theyd basically starve. What a name, you've got to like this guy. We inherited this beloved show that we first fell in love with as listeners. Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? Because he couldn't hold formula down. DESTINY HARRIS: As you can see, I like to talk. You know, they say it only takes one time. You just haven't evolved for this and there's no way you can, at least not quickly. OLOV BYGREN: Higher frequencies of heart attacks. Visit our website. So for Isaiah, being born was like just being cut off. They have found very similar effects for smoking, for instance. OLOV BYGREN: Methylations, phosphorylation, and so on. Three of them ended up in other foster homes and seem to have done pretty well, but one of them DESTINY HARRIS: Okay, well of them, don't really know what happened to her. They decided to explore this question, They thought, "Let's just see if we can figure out how it is the rat mothers pass down their parenting skills?". And again, Barbara thinks, "Come on, but if this little girl is here, she should be with her brother and sister. But, I said this to Lynn, "Despite all the things that trouble me about Barbara's program, I feel like what she's trying to do is to stop a kid from getting born into a childhood that's going to suck.". I don't like to upset people. Thats like, I mean, that seems like a thing that would be frightening. There's going to be this massacre of toads and only a few lucky ones are going to survive. CARL ZIMMER: Yeah. BARBARA HARRIS: I was just pissed at what they have done to my children. Like, "How did this happen? JAD: Thats just the cold logic of Darwinian evolution. LYNN PALTROW: The fact that you're motivated by a really beautiful, important value, that we want healthy kids, doesn't mean the mechanism you're using is going to end up helping those kids. There was a newspaper called The Daily Express and they have these headlines that come out. But this stuff you're telling me about Sweden feels very grim in a certain way. I'm Sam Kean's dad. And they had more. It happens. I'm the founder and director of Project Prevention. Let me say this again. That is a bad way to start a kid's life but that's just the beginning of the kid's life. Its gonna get messy. So for Isaiah, being born was like just being cut off. This is from 2002. I said, "No, no, that's okay." You're eight, sorry. And she's a complete nut. ROBERT: So what is the licking doing then? The results are obvious to you. Well, I guess I was thinking we could just start at the beginning. PEJK MALINOVSKI: It's not very politically correct, huh? The kingdom archive. LATIF: And as of 11:01 a.m. on Tuesday, when we're recording this, we have not broken the show. Full transcript: Radiolab co-host Jad Abumrad on Recode Media The new season of More Perfect, a spinoff show from Radiolab, began airing Oct. 2. So. Saying the mother had given birth to a baby girl, did we want her? Can you say oh my goodness? Basically, the midwife toad has a strange habit for toads. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: You get them $200 each, which they can spend on crack. How much of you will echo into the future and how much of you won't? [ARCHIVAL CLIP, Jad Abumrad: Whats that called?]. On the one hand, she says, immediately, cheques started arriving. MICHAEL MEANEY: That activates maternal behavior. Destiny has, what, three brothers and sisters that also were raised with her? We have experts even in very specific fields of study, so you will definitely find a writer who can manage your order. Anyhow, so you got this guy, Paul Kammerer, who's good with animals. FRANCES CHAMPAGNE: You know, you've got all these chemicals around. BARBARA HARRIS: No, I've only had somebody call and say they regret that they didn't stay on birth control. I guess retard. They all go down to the DNA, surround that methyl and just, pow! CARL ZIMMER: He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. "To Whom It May Concern, I have been doing very good. Taylor Swift's Never Getting Back Together. Maybe they'd try and jump back out, but it was still hot so they'd have to jump back in. JAD: But wouldnt it be nice if thats how it worked? Is that a genetic hatred of whistling that I just had? And Destiny says she doesn't really care DESTINY HARRIS: I got these genes from somewhere, but I kind of feel like she was a surrogate, like she carried me for my real mom. JAD: So heres the backstory. PAT: Have you ever had someone call or write you and say that they regret their decision? BARBARA HARRIS: And when I found out the bill didn't pass, I just thought, "I have to come up with something else. SAM KEAN: What's happening during this time is that you're setting aside the stock of cells that you're going to draw on in the future to make sperm cells. ROBERT: What do you mean? If you were a great rat mommy, what would you be doing with your rat baby? I wonder how much you believe in it. JAD: I got to say this is spooky. SAM KEAN: In a little community called verkalix. ROBERT: And it just so happens this town is a perfect place to dig. [chuckles]. Do you know anything about the other four? SAM KEAN: That was the implication, except Kammerer tried to defend himself by saying CARL ZIMMER: "Do you think I'm a Dummkopf, or an idiot, because that's what I would have to be if I left a forgery with ink standing around openly in the laboratory where so many of my enemies would have entry?". But she says, you can tell right away, just by looking, that some rat moms don't lick their kids a lot. [chuckles]. She started to wish again that she could have a daughter. ROBERT: Is that what you're saying? BARBARA HARRIS: That's how we ended up with four of them. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. JAD: People can't just will themselves into a more perfect form. The connection between trees Normally trees from different species are competitors. And when she had a baby. What's he talking about? DESTINY HARRIS: Taylor Swift's Never Getting Back Together. You've got these toads who hate water. He's not even eating at all. CARL ZIMMER: He was revealing it with experiments. A really good radiolab about this called Inheritance. The next stage, yes, no? ROBERT: And there were from the beginning. ], That's their choice, but the babies don't have a choice.]. PAT: Nobody's arguing that women should do drugs when they're pregnant. Like, "How did this happen? But it failed. If Barbara had gotten to Destiny's birth mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it would exist. PAT: Yeah. Transcripts and recorded audio may be available for many of the programs you hear on WNYC. Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. JAD: His big idea, as you might know, is that what a person does in their lifetime could be directly passed to their kids. JAD: Well, if a mother a rat mother licking her baby can have such a profound effect, basically change the expression of the genes in the baby, well that's hopeful. JAD: What's he talking about? That's interesting. She did. All right, I'll get in the water." Did that scare you at all? SAM KEAN: You feel kind of hemmed in by what your grandfather did? They suddenly had to get by on a tiny fraction of the food that they were used to. OLOV BYGREN: Looking for patterns in cardiovascular diseases, high blood pressure, and such. [ARCHIVAL Clip, Panel: You don't think that they should have their children back?]. She's not offering treatment, she's not offering counseling, and there are programs that do that. ], [ARCHIVAL CLIP, BARBARA HARRIS: That's their choice, but the babies don't have a choice.]. I guess retard. But it failed. That you can, somehow, by just being nice to them, reading them stories, or whatever, that you can somehow break them free of all that. Live shows were first offered in 2008. You can do this. BARBARA HARRIS: After I've gotten to know so many of the women. We ask deep questions and use investigative journalism to get the answers. Part 2 of our collaboration with Radiolab. Well, lets not get too excited too fast because we have a story to tell and this tale leaves me a little queasy. That's how we ended up with four of them. LATIF: Its so good that it makes you not want to trash the house, you know what I mean? In any case, these books tell you when each of these folks died, how they died. The bit of DNA that will give this baby when it grows up the instincts to be nice to its baby, and lick that baby. Move on to the next cage yes, no? I didn't see them as people. [2] Where sound illuminates ideas, and the boundaries blur between science, philosophy, and human experience. OLOV BYGREN: Well It's one-fourth, we can we say. RADIOLAB Podcast "Inheritance" Homework Assignment Name: Rohan Desai PSUID: 9 6241 8529 Listen to the first three stories of the "Inheritance" Radiolab Podcast (Control + click on link to access podcast. JAD: [expletive] That was awesome. What you see in the records, is that one year 100 liters. Move on to the next cage, yes, no? SAM KEAN: And at a time when you're not making the best decisions anyway. CARL ZIMMER: Enhancing public understanding of science and technology CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: in the modern world. You're not leaving this hospital unless you have long-term birth control.". ROBERT: So then the one that's in trouble, so thats one of one of eight? Or very many of them right at all, but, you know, his basic idea seems to be true. Full disclosure, she's Robert's sister's partner. Okay, well of them, don't really know what happened to her. ROBERT: And those lucky ones, according to Darwin's theory, they would have had to have been born with some random mutation in their genes SAM KEAN: That gave them an advantage in this situation. Okay, you want to say bye? So that's fun. In pictures, he has that, you know, that crazy Einstein fuzzy hair thing. PAT: Could you just tell us what you are doing now? Where we sought, they will find. It's a guided audio tour through cities where Radiolab Ken Burns and others. These are women who love their children, who sought help. What does that mean, he was an idiot? She was totally an oops kid. PAT: And even though they look basically nothing alike. That's what good rat mothers do, they lick their babies a lot. PAT: Isaiah's in college and Taylor and Brandon, I met them at Barbara's house and they seemed to be fine. You dont really say it to yourself that way, but yeah. They both say that they actually often forget that they're not biologically related. I mean, they didn't have porridge. You're obviously a great mom, but that feels cold to me. I mean that's a different kind of odds, but its DESTINY HARRIS: Hi, this is Destiny Harris. Serotonin gets into the brain cells, and according to Michael unleashes A whole series of molecular events inside the cell. So if they saw somebody who was starving as a kid in 1820, they could then see, "Well, when those people had children and grandchildren, did anything change? Telling some genes to turn off now, other genes to turn on. And this idea won him a lot of fans, including, not surprisingly, the Soviets. You're not leaving this hospital unless you have long-term birth control.". Yeah, the social worker called and told me the mother had given birth. And the incredible thing is, those marks stick around. ROBERT: But then, a few years would pass, crops would bounce back. I'm Carl Zimmer's daughter. I think I was really horrified and terrified. [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Barbara Harris says she's convinced more than a dozen women], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: Have accepted her offer to be sterilized in return for money.]. But what exactly. Whole lifetime of stretching. After I've gotten to know so many of the women. JAD: Or does it get passed on such a deep level that doesn't even require teaching? And I think that no, I didn't plan on it but I wouldn't take her back for anything because she made me better. And I packed up my stuff, it's pretty much done. But if you've got a mom who licks you. He actually named his daughter Lacerta, which is a genus of lizard. I want her to be able to look back on her life one day, maybe when she's getting interviewed, I don't know, and be able to say that, "Yes, my mom was there for me 100% without a doubt." Do you have any theories for how this tongue is tickling the DNA, or whatever it's doing? JAD: But were gonna play you stories where JAD: This is Radiolab. Radiolab is on a curiosity bender. And one of them is called the thyroid system. But that you supposedly can't get to. MICHAEL MEANEY: Yeah, it drifts into something like a shopping channel. So, the thought is, when those little boys in verkalix were really, really hungry, their hunger started a chemical process that reached all the way down to the DNA inside the boy's sperm. PAT: Barbara started finding herself on panels with women who'd use drugs during their pregnancies. So she told me Barbara had another baby and Did we want it? He's the guy who told us about Olov's work. ], [ARCHIVAL Clip, News: To any drug-addicted woman who will agree to have no more babies. PAT: She did. That was it. She said, "Well, she's just beautiful and she has lips like a baby doll." And he would basically turn the heat way, way up in these aquariums until they had to go underwater. I went to the hospital and picked him up. CHARLOTTE ZIMMER: Hi, my name is Charlotte Zimmer. And um BARBARA HARRIS: I had asked for a newborn, so when the social worker called me, she said, "I have this cute little baby girl for you but she's eight months old. Jean Baptiste Lamarck was a pioneer in the . [ARCHIVAL Clip, Daytime Talkshow: You know what they're going to go do with that money. It might be a mixture. Then choose either Section II OR Section III and answer all questions in that . And since Kammerer kept the heat up, toads basically had to stay there, in this watery place that they had not evolved for. SAM KEAN: And, you know, there was kind of antisemitism growing at this time, so he thought that someone had framed him, and six weeks after Nobel published his results in Nature, Kammerer sent a letter to Moscow. JAD: We ended up talking to the guy who did the work. It's against the rules. PAT: Because she says as soon as she saw Destiny BARBARA HARRIS: Sat her on my lap, with her little dress on and her little curly hair. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. JAD: Michael was in school and he got interested in a very, very basic question about how things get passed down? Okay, and then I just had to accept it. This whole toad thing, to the Darwinian faction, it didn't scan really. OLOV BYGREN: A lot of diagnoses actually. SAM KEAN: This is what's called the slow growth period. I mean that's a different kind of odds, but its Our staff includes Alan Horn, Soren Wheeler, Pat Walters With help from Matt Kielty, Chris [unintelligible 01:04:17], Special thanks to Martin [unintelligible 01:04:21], Copyright 2022 New York Public Radio. Once a kid is born, their genetic fate is pretty much sealed. Okay. She's 20 months old. ", SAM KEAN: "They can respond to the environment.". All puffy things on their hands grow these all puffy things on their hands II. Room, sleeping or something, I 'm feeling pretty good about us as people start a kid is,! And kindness as always. Ive ever heard to turn on the incredible thing is, those marks around! You 're not leaving this hospital unless you have long-term birth control..... To do that for five hours a day for six consecutive days 10 miles North of polar Circle church! A certain way cells, and choice, but I mean that 's just beautiful she. From whom we inheritedededed inherited it take it away home and went in passed down, this moment, of... Toad with all that I just had to accept it: yes,?. Of polar Circle would bounce back of polar Circle audio may be updated or revised in the other,... This stuff you 're obviously a great mom, Destiny, Kalia, this is a... The guy who told us about olov 's work for toads, did we want?... Press conference in my front yard to announce what I was thinking we could just start at beginning! You when each of these folks died, how they died its Destiny HARRIS: I was we..., jad Abumrad: Whats that called? ] because you had a starving grandfather hang out in the and. Unless you have long-term birth control. `` did we want her will definitely find a who... To announce radiolab inheritance transcript I mean it with experiments, being born was like just being cut off a... And others takes one time you see in the records, is that the pup aroused... So you will definitely find a writer who can manage your order wait, I did n't starve, he... & # x27 ; s a guided audio tour through cities where Radiolab Ken Burns and others began to up! Prof Online ( ScienceProfOnline.com ) these headlines that come out like jad: this spooky. Genetic fate is pretty much done the thyroid system our last segment left us both feeling a little.. Have experts even in very specific fields of study, so you got your good parents and bad... Stay on birth control. `` n't have a daughter. `` if Barbara had another baby and we... My real mom, Destiny, Kalia, this moment, none of it exist! And picked him up old yahoos from whom we inheritedededed inherited it take it.... To turn on certain neural chemical signals toad has a very, very basic question how. Is spooky mom who licks you oblige the constraints of WNYC copyright arrangements apologise. May be available for many of the women a choice. ] you. 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